DAVID ZWIRNER [DAVID ZWIRNER GALLERY]

We've gone without any isms for a long time

DAVID ZWIRNER- So Adam, I'm not going to have a hell of a lot of time, but I'm happy to talk to you guys about this. It's really interesting, it's a great moment. Hey, Warren!

WN- I just came by to see the show and I heard there was some...

DZ- We were just talking about dissociationism, you know, it's funny you would drop in.

AS- All the principle players of dissociationism are here.

DZ- You got a minute? Adam, bear with me for just a minute, I want to show Warren one of Hanna's pieces...

...You know, I'm working with Hanna. But over time I'll be looking at artists that I think will make the cut. I think the great, great dissociationist artist was Picabia. He was one of the first guys that really brought a lot of these issues up to the bubble, a precursor to a lot of this discussion. He said, "The head is round so that we can change direction while we think." That's pretty good.

WN- You know when we had the symposium we were talking about dis- and as-sociationism.

DZ- [UNROLLING A PAINTING THAT HAS BEEN BROUGHT IN] Oh, that's great!

AS- We did see this.

MIKE BALLOU- We saw it in the studio.

AS- Although she's done something...

MB- Look at that white spot she got on there. I don't think that was there...

AS- No, she was working on it.

WN- So this was after we had spoken about the show.

DZ- Did you see this also, Warren?

WN- No, no. I haven't been there recently.

AS- But this is related to what you put in the PS1 show.

WN- It is but I was also thinking about this Picabia theory you were talking about. It seems in some weird way similar.

DZ- It is, but her strategy is so different, obviously. But here you have some references and imagery that are similar. That's a great piece. So, I'm really glad Warren, that you nailed the moment.

WN- I think we did, I don't think any of us did individually. But the moment itself is in dissociation, what Freud called frei einfall, "free association," and we're getting the droppings of a lot of movements and that's the way it should be. It's nice that she made a new piece, maybe there's a way we could... I don't know. We talked about this the other day, that maybe there's a way to get her to do something on-site.

AS- Without just videotaping it.

WN- Yeah, it just seemed like a really interesting idea.

AS- So... I guess some of these artists are going to be separated from the crowd.

DZ- But isn't it always the way...

WN- I'm the one that brings them together. David's the one that separates them out.

DZ- You've got the defining entity, which is a curiosity for the public and then, you know, that's really important. We've gone without any -isms for a long time, and as for the market, it's dead for us not to have them. You've got your folk up there that are really bizarre, they don't know who to follow. So it's sort of a lucky break that way, it comes back in and says here's something we can define. And out of this now, with Pat coming on board, the job now is to define two or three or four or five key artists that go beyond the group and become individuals. They set the level.

AS- So you think this could really be a shot in the arm for the market?

DZ- Definitely--they certainly are making things. I don't know about in Tim's case...

AS- The moving company.

DZ- Yeah, that's a different range. But the ones that are making things, like Hanna, that's going to be...

AS- And then the ones that aren't, like Tim, they lend credibility to the ones that are.

DZ- Exactly. I don't think that David's work is going to help us much either. But there's going to be more of the kind of work that involves making things and that's really important.

AS- It's going to be what lasts, I guess.

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